International, language, and being a geo nerd ...
3 messages in this thread |
Started on 2003-04-30
International, language, and being a geo nerd ...
From: Randy Hall (randy@mapsurfer.com) |
Date: 2003-04-30 18:00:04 UTC-04:00
(quotes from different people)
> Even though LBNA stands for Letterbox North America, the old clues
> included: Central America/Caribbean/Bermuda,
> Canada/Greenland/Iceland
All of these places are considered by some to be, at least partly,
in North America (a physical geographer will put half of Iceland there,
a cultural geographer will put the whole thing in Europe (Bermuda, tougher
case, but there is an argument), "central amercia/carribbean" is part of
North America as a _continent_ -- sorry, I'm a geography nerd and don't
oppose non-North American letterboxes being placed on LbNA, just wanted
to be a geography nerd :-) (ignore this paragraph)
> Personally I think if a box is going to be placed in another country the
> clues should also be available in the regional language.
This begs the question -- is no clue better than a clue in a non-local
language? (for we as a group are not fluent in 6600 languages). I would
argue to the contrary, and have written a couple of clues that are not
in the local language (which happened to be American English), and have
gotten good feedback about them. But the philosophy of your point is
good, and is taken.
> I also figure that it couldn't hurt to put some of the basic information
> pages in Spanish (the faq and the getting started pages).
If you (or anyone) translates the faq, it will be posted in that language
(assuming no objections, which I would not expect). You may want to wait
'til I finish dusting it off (the revisions will be minor), but it will
always be the case that the translation is out of date as I modify the
English version only anyway.
Cheers
Re: [LbNA] International, language, and being a geo nerd ...
From: letterboxing mobots (themobots@yahoo.com) |
Date: 2003-04-30 19:32:29 UTC-07:00
Ok, this is really long. It probably seems silly to a
lot of people but I feel pretty strongly about this.
I feel like the more I write about this the more I
come off like a self-righteous cranky jerk. but I'm a
teacher so more than a few people think that about me
already so here goes.
>>I don't speak a lick of Polish and my
>>German, French and other foreign language skills
>>didn't help a bit in the translation. Regardless,
we >>were still able to translate it and ultimately
found >>the letterbox last October.
I understand that the language is part of the clue.
But this is different as it was placed by someone from
the USA in the USA where there is already an
established group of people into letterboxing. I know
there are translators and things, but I think it's
safe to say that letterboxing is relatively unknown in
the countries we are talking about so no one knows to
use the translator to find the clues for the
letterboxes that they don't know about.
>>Also, if you check many of the personal foreign
>>letterboxing sites, (Germany, Netherlands, etc.)
their >>clues are written primarily in English and
then also >>translated into their native languages
when they opted >>to do so.
yes but these were boxes planted in Germany,
Netherlands, etc. by people from Germany, Netherlands
etc. Also, multilingualism is far more common in
Europe than in this hemisphere.
>>I would argue to the contrary, and have written a
>>couple of clues that are not in the local language
>>(which happened to be American English), and have
>> gotten good feedback about them.
There are a lot of clues here that have a trick to
them and I think that is great. Language is
definitely an interesting one. But I guess it all
boils down to a question of audience. for the most
part the clues on the site are for boxes placed in
US/Canada for US/Canadian residents by US/Canadian
residents. In dealing with the other countries, the
same basic attitude is present.
There has been a lot of talk lately about asking
rangers about placing boxes, some people do this and
others do not. The people that do this do so because
they don't want to generate any bad will between the
people who are essentially hosting the box. The
people who don't do discuss this with the rangers can
at least take some solace in the fact that whether or
not the ranger knows about it, the box gets enough
traffic to "justify" it's environmental impact. If it
falls out of repair the person who placed it usually
maintains it/removes it. If we place boxes in
countries where there is no established letterboxing
population, where we can't maintain them, the won't
see as much traffic, and the local population can't
enjoy them, I don't think the environmental impact is
justifiable.
There is a term "the ugly american" (this has nothing
to do with the war or anything like that). It refers
to the way that many US citizens act when traveling.
We have a reputation among international travelers as
people who take little regard for local customs,
language etc. and expect everything to be as easy for
them as it is in the states. I'm sure many of us have
been abroad and head someone scream in an annoyed
voice "DOESN'T ANYONE HERE SPEAK ENGLISH!?" Well,
maybe not. that's part of international travel. If
you can't deal with this, you should probably go to
Hawaii instead. If we are going to place letterboxes
in other countries without being at least a little
flexible in how we go about it, we are basically
reinforcing the idea that we do not adapt to other
cultures. I'm willing to be that letterboxers by
nature are not "ugly americans" when traveling and
this is not to say that it's not frustrating to not
speak the local language. But this is a small way
that we can be a little more sensitive to the local
population when letterboxing in other countries.
Difficult clues or not, letterboxes are placed so that
they can be found. If I go around placing boxes in
the most remote areas I can find with clues that are
over cryptic and no one finds them. Instead of
letterboxing, I was basically just littering. Trying
to encourage letterboxing in other countries reduces
the chance that we are just littering.
Anyway, thanks if you made it this far. If I seem
like a jerk, I'm really not so bad in person. From
here I'm going to plan to e-mail translations for the
Central American and Mexican boxes to Wes over the
summer along with a translation of the getting started
and FAQ pages.
Oh, and for the record. Can't translate for the boxes
in Zimbabwe or Kuwait (my opinions on the Kuwait box
are a little different just because I think the small
joy of someone in the service finding a letterbox in
Kuwait when they have so many other things to deal
with far outweighs any environmental impact one
letterbox can cause, especially when you consider the
environmental impact of other things going on over
there). Jen and I both can and will happily do any
translating for letterboxes placed in Spanish-speaking
or Portuguese speaking countries (working on French).
Thanks for reading,
Jim
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lot of people but I feel pretty strongly about this.
I feel like the more I write about this the more I
come off like a self-righteous cranky jerk. but I'm a
teacher so more than a few people think that about me
already so here goes.
>>I don't speak a lick of Polish and my
>>German, French and other foreign language skills
>>didn't help a bit in the translation. Regardless,
we >>were still able to translate it and ultimately
found >>the letterbox last October.
I understand that the language is part of the clue.
But this is different as it was placed by someone from
the USA in the USA where there is already an
established group of people into letterboxing. I know
there are translators and things, but I think it's
safe to say that letterboxing is relatively unknown in
the countries we are talking about so no one knows to
use the translator to find the clues for the
letterboxes that they don't know about.
>>Also, if you check many of the personal foreign
>>letterboxing sites, (Germany, Netherlands, etc.)
their >>clues are written primarily in English and
then also >>translated into their native languages
when they opted >>to do so.
yes but these were boxes planted in Germany,
Netherlands, etc. by people from Germany, Netherlands
etc. Also, multilingualism is far more common in
Europe than in this hemisphere.
>>I would argue to the contrary, and have written a
>>couple of clues that are not in the local language
>>(which happened to be American English), and have
>> gotten good feedback about them.
There are a lot of clues here that have a trick to
them and I think that is great. Language is
definitely an interesting one. But I guess it all
boils down to a question of audience. for the most
part the clues on the site are for boxes placed in
US/Canada for US/Canadian residents by US/Canadian
residents. In dealing with the other countries, the
same basic attitude is present.
There has been a lot of talk lately about asking
rangers about placing boxes, some people do this and
others do not. The people that do this do so because
they don't want to generate any bad will between the
people who are essentially hosting the box. The
people who don't do discuss this with the rangers can
at least take some solace in the fact that whether or
not the ranger knows about it, the box gets enough
traffic to "justify" it's environmental impact. If it
falls out of repair the person who placed it usually
maintains it/removes it. If we place boxes in
countries where there is no established letterboxing
population, where we can't maintain them, the won't
see as much traffic, and the local population can't
enjoy them, I don't think the environmental impact is
justifiable.
There is a term "the ugly american" (this has nothing
to do with the war or anything like that). It refers
to the way that many US citizens act when traveling.
We have a reputation among international travelers as
people who take little regard for local customs,
language etc. and expect everything to be as easy for
them as it is in the states. I'm sure many of us have
been abroad and head someone scream in an annoyed
voice "DOESN'T ANYONE HERE SPEAK ENGLISH!?" Well,
maybe not. that's part of international travel. If
you can't deal with this, you should probably go to
Hawaii instead. If we are going to place letterboxes
in other countries without being at least a little
flexible in how we go about it, we are basically
reinforcing the idea that we do not adapt to other
cultures. I'm willing to be that letterboxers by
nature are not "ugly americans" when traveling and
this is not to say that it's not frustrating to not
speak the local language. But this is a small way
that we can be a little more sensitive to the local
population when letterboxing in other countries.
Difficult clues or not, letterboxes are placed so that
they can be found. If I go around placing boxes in
the most remote areas I can find with clues that are
over cryptic and no one finds them. Instead of
letterboxing, I was basically just littering. Trying
to encourage letterboxing in other countries reduces
the chance that we are just littering.
Anyway, thanks if you made it this far. If I seem
like a jerk, I'm really not so bad in person. From
here I'm going to plan to e-mail translations for the
Central American and Mexican boxes to Wes over the
summer along with a translation of the getting started
and FAQ pages.
Oh, and for the record. Can't translate for the boxes
in Zimbabwe or Kuwait (my opinions on the Kuwait box
are a little different just because I think the small
joy of someone in the service finding a letterbox in
Kuwait when they have so many other things to deal
with far outweighs any environmental impact one
letterbox can cause, especially when you consider the
environmental impact of other things going on over
there). Jen and I both can and will happily do any
translating for letterboxes placed in Spanish-speaking
or Portuguese speaking countries (working on French).
Thanks for reading,
Jim
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
http://search.yahoo.com
Re: [LbNA] International, language, and being a geo nerd ...
From: psycomommy2003 (ktborrelli@hotmail.com) |
Date: 2003-05-01 12:41:24 UTC
--- Guess you didn't have any papers to grade yesterday! :-)
Take a look at Randy Hall's boxes. Some of his have been out in
the wilderness for years without being discovered! Now finding one of
them would be like finding hidden treasure! The beauty of the game is
diversity.
Someday I may get to Zimbabwe and find that lonely L'box. If
only in my dreams!!!!!
Psychomommy
In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, letterboxing mobots
wrote:
>
> Difficult clues or not, letterboxes are placed so that
> they can be found. If I go around placing boxes in
> the most remote areas I can find with clues that are
> over cryptic and no one finds them.
Take a look at Randy Hall's boxes. Some of his have been out in
the wilderness for years without being discovered! Now finding one of
them would be like finding hidden treasure! The beauty of the game is
diversity.
Someday I may get to Zimbabwe and find that lonely L'box. If
only in my dreams!!!!!
Psychomommy
In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, letterboxing mobots
>
> Difficult clues or not, letterboxes are placed so that
> they can be found. If I go around placing boxes in
> the most remote areas I can find with clues that are
> over cryptic and no one finds them.